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When Ares starts telling Xena he loves her, her reaction is not "get lost, I don't love you" -- it's "get lost, I don't trust you." Which kind of tells me there are some feelings there -- if a guy I didn't care about one bit was trying to tell me he loved me, I wouldn't give too much thought to whether he was sincere or not.

My view is that in Amphipolis Under Siege, when he takes her side against Athena, she does finally realize that his feelings are sincere, but I think she still regards him as basically selfish and incapable of "unconditional and unselfish love," as he put it in Looking Death in the Eye. (And not surprisingly, since he always offers her his help conditional on her accepting his "bargain.") It's not until his sacrifice in Motherhood that she realizes the true depth of his feelings. (No wonder she looks totally shocked!)

Of course the big question shippers have to answer for themselves is, Why didn't Xena and Ares hook up in Season 6 when he was mortal. My own answer to that is partly what I said before -- she's afraid that he would accept her dark side too completely. Partly the baggage between them, no doubt. And partly, I think that she still has certain concerns about his character. (Remember her comment in Old Ares Had a Farm -- "the dog worships him, that's a relationship Ares can understand." ) It's one thing to be capable of an impulsive self-sacrificing act at a moment of extreme crisis (when Ares knew that either he had to give up his godhood or he had to watch Xena die, again). It's another to be a good person on a consistent basis.

It's also quite possible that Xena felt all along that Ares and mortality were not a good fit, and that some day he would regain his "job" as the God of War

LadyKate63, "Questions for a shipper"

She didn't respond right away, though [in the dream in EB]. She starts by punching him a couple of times -- then sticking out her arm to hold him at an arm's length (which somehow becomes simply a hold on his vest ) -- then throwing all the nasty stuff he did in his face... and finally believing him. He says that he will fight on her side. He asks her forgiveness. And, well... he's right there, and Xena does have a tendency to kind of lose her defences when Ares gets that close (witness AUS). Whether it would have resulted in a relationship, I don't know -- I doubt it. But an alliance, yes.

Tango, "Xena's dream in ETERNAL BONDS"

I think there is an interesting possibility here [in making love to Xena] -- that Ares didn't want to push the envelope. Perhaps if he'd tried doing anything Borias-like (such as making an overt invitation, for instance), there would have been the possibility of Xena refusing. And if that happened, that would be the end -- a definite rejection. So he would rather wait for Xena to make the first move, as he does in AUS (and in "Chakram", and in EB, even in TR).

Once Xena makes her move, though (as in AUS), he's quite happy to be assertive -- because he's secure in the knowledge that he won't be rejected. In that sense, his newfound assertiveness in POV (the red glow scene) is quite interesting. Why is he suddenly so sure that Xena won't reject him? And she doesn't, she lets him touch her and holds his hand while he nuzzles her. So was it a gamble that paid off? Or are they in a relationship?

Tango, "Timid Ares?"

I think that if Xena offered him one night of passion, he'd take her up on it. He might even want to turn her down ... but I don't think he'd have the strength. I also think he'd always hope that the one night would lead to more.

Anyway, I think the point is not that he wouldn't accept "just one night" ... or even that he wouldn't try to seduce Xena ... it's just that when it comes to making a direct physical move, he seems to hesitate unless there is a very clear signal from Xena that she wants it.

And I do think it's about his fear of making himself vulnerable.

LadyKate63, "Timid Ares?"

As she says in Coming Home, "You always got to me, but you're bad for me." Now, does this necessarily mean that she actually loves him as opposed to some mix of attraction and affection that doesn't necessarily rise to the level of "love"? (And what's the difference between "love" and a mix of attraction and affection? degree of intensity maybe?) I used to view Xena's feelings toward Ares as much more ambivalent than I do now, and it was certainly left ambiguous on the show. In a way the X/A relationship was just as ambiguous as X/G. With X/G there was never any doubt that they loved each other, but the sexuality was subtextual/ambiguous/unresolved; with X/A it was just the other way round -- the sexuality was "maintext," the love was ambiguous (especially on Xena's part). I do feel that Xena's attraction (define it as you will) was to Ares the person, and not the personification of War, because clearly she still cared for him when he was mortal. (Actually more so than when he was a god, I would say!)

In my view, Xena always remains afraid of herself (and her dark side), and to that extent she's also afraid of her feelings for him.

LadyKate63, "Questions for a shipper"

First of all: You know, I don't think Ares was quite as manipulative as he believed. I mean, he tried, but he wasn't very good at it because he wasn't cold enough to be manipulative. Manipulative is when you get someone not just do what you want, but to actually WANT to do what you want them to do -- see what I mean? In some episodes Ares manipulates the situation (e.g. The Reckoning or Succession), but he doesn't really manipulate Xena. When he tries to manipulate Xena -- e.g. in The Deliverer when he tries to get her to destroy the temple by pointing out that it would really p*ss off Caesar -- he's so blatant about it that he might as well wear a name tag that says, "Hi, I'm Ares and I'm trying to manipulate you." His most successful manipulation of Xena herself is in Ties That Bind where he pretends to be Xena's father, but even there he tips his hand to soon by suddenly "reviving" when he sees that Xena's resolution to kill the villagers is faltering.

The only time Ares was really "smarmy" to me was in The Reckoning.

What I found really fascinating is that as early as Ties That Bind, Xena was able to "get to" Ares emotionally -- thus undercutting his attempts at manipulation. Because actually ... he is pretty good at manipulating other people. (Kirillus, Varia -- even Gabrielle, to some extent.) I think he's not very good at it with Xena because she gets him off-balance. She's his weak spot, his vulnerability. And to some extent he is hers, in a very different way than Gabrielle. That's one of the things I like about their dynamic.

Can Ares change for Xena? Well, that possibility was first brought up in Ten Little Warlords ("You'd be surprised at the kind of change you might inspire in a man -- or a god"). I don't think Ares ever "changes" in the sense that he would actually turn his life around and start working for the Greater Good (even as a mortal). And even when he starts talking to Xena about love and wanting to prove himself to her, he still, for a while, sticks to his old ways of trying to manipulate or bully her into giving him her love (the "bargain" in Amphipolis Under Siege, the threats in Eve). BUT -- all the while, I do think he's slowly and painfully changing. Enough to recognize in Looking Death in the Eye that he "handled her all wrong" because he wasn't able to offer her "unconditional and unselfish love." And finally, enough to give her a gift of completely unconditional love by giving up his godhood to revive Eve and Gabrielle in Motherhood. (As Xena says in Coming Home, "For the God of War, there is no greater sacrifice.") I think that's why Xena looks so stunned when she faces him in MH, she just never expected him to be capable of this kind of unselfish act.

And also -- basically, he gives up who he is. He stops being the God of War for her. How huge is that? He makes good on his offer in God Fearing Child -- he could be mortal and live out his life with her. Except here, he does it with no promise of any kind that he'll actually get to spend the rest of his life with her.

So yeah, I do think that he changes, a great deal. Obviously Xena still finds him too "dangerous" ... but I think that by the end of the show they do achieve a kind of understanding. Also, I disagree that they can have no "emotional consummation." I think that Ares is Xena's "other soulmate" -- it's just a totally different kind of emotional bond than what she has with Gabrielle. Xena and Gabrielle are complementary -- Gabrielle provides the emotional qualities that Xena herself does not have in abundance. Gabrielle is the "light," the inspiration -- a lot of the things that Xena would like to be and can't be. Her bond with Ares is one of "kindred spirits." "Whatsoever souls are made of, his and mine are the same." They're very much alike in some important ways, perhaps too much alike for their own good. They share a very deep understanding based on the "warrior spirit" they both have. In The Bitter Suite, Xena's fantasy-Ares says (sings), "I know you completely." He doesn't quite, at that point -- I don't think Ares fully understands Xena's "light," at that point, just as Gabrielle doesn't understand her "darkness." But toward the end of the show -- in Path of Vengeance -- I do think that Ares fully understands and accepts Xena, and that is surely an emotional bond as well as a physical one.

LadyKate63, "More Subber to Shipper questions..."

Ares gives up his godhood for Xena. I agree, that *is* huge. It's demonstrating Ares putting his money where his mouth is, so to speak; showing by his actions the depth of his connection to Xena and willing to sacrifice a great deal for her. When the chips were down, he came through for her at tremendous cost to himself with no expectation of return. That's pretty close to the definition of love in my book.

But in addition to that, I also think it's logical to assume that the experience of mortality itself could have a profound effect on him (particularly if he had stayed mortal, and come to a greater understanding of life is like for mortals--as LK deals with in ETTG--of course, then again I'm a really big fan of character growth through suffering; it's one of the main points I'm trying to make in my AU ).

But yes, I think that's a good interpretation that Ares is also a "soulmate" to Xena, and that he and Gabby play complementary roles in their feelings for and interactions with Xena. I think it's plausible that people can have multiple soulmates--for example, I would consider my fiance and my brother and my best friend all my "soulmates," but in different ways.

Daughter of Tiaran, "More Subber to Shipper questions..."

Yes, there was something between those two in the beginning, but it definitely wasn’t romantic love. Attraction, lust, admiration, maybe some caring, sure but it didn’t go much further than that. Although, during Ares’ brush with mortality Xena experienced a glimpse of humanity in him and felt a different kind of affection that maybe she never really forgot.

I agree that it wasn’t just one thing that suddenly changed everything between them. I think there were several turning points in their relationship. For one, it’s Ares admitting his true feelings in God Fearing Child, although Xena didn’t actually hear it. That was a major step for him. Xena was probably the first and only woman he ever loved-- wouldn’t that be romantic-- and for a god of war to admit his feelings for her is definitely nothing minor. Ares does say that he loves her but I don’t think he really knows what true love is at that point. But he does admit that he feels something that is totally new to him and he just doesn't know how to handle it.

I think Ares saving baby Eve was also a small turning point, as it allowed Xena to accept the possibility that Ares wasn’t all selfish, that he might have even cared in his own way.

In LDITE, Ares admits of not being able to give her unselfish, unconditional love which is also a step in the right direction.

Obviously Ares’ sacrifice was the defining moment. At that point, they were on the same page. Xena realized that Ares truly loved her and Ares probably just realized that himself. And it’s only after that, that Xena allows herself to reciprocate those feelings.

So anyway, their relationship was always evolving but I’d like to think that by the end they’ve reached a mutual understanding, acceptance, and yes, genuine love.

Skye42, "The development of the Xena/Ares relationship?"

In God Fearing Child, I felt that Xena had a *lot* she was trying to deal with; Ares's sense of timing in his confession to Xena was characteristically bad (although I think in his defense, he was just overcome with emotion and couldn't keep it back anymore), and it was just too much for Xena to deal with in her emotional state at that point in time (don't forget also, she doesn't trust him). IMHO Ares recognized this and tried to correct it with his comment about how it was "worth a shot"--he's trying to not only defend his momentary vulnerability, but also to sort of take his confession "off the table," and give Xena a break by putting things back the way they had been.

Daughter of Tiaran, "Awwww.."

I think that by offering all of herself to him [in AUS "my sword...and the body that wields it"] she was simply hoping that he would agree to the deal and fall into her trap, so to speak.

And I think part of it was the fact that she didn't believe that he really loved her and that he only wanted her as he'd always wanted her. So if she offered her body and her sword, she'd be irresistible to him. And that explains why she was so shocked that he rejected her in the end.

Aurora Goddess, "my sword and the body that wields it"

It's funny, I don't think I do see a real "temptation" in those pictures of Xena from YAT. I see what I said in my previous post, an acknowledgement that while things between her and Ares are going back to how they used to be, while at the same time they've irrevocably changed, and some good old fashioned desire. If anything, her response to the "think -- of the possibilities" line is more likely to have been a yearning that she suppressed pretty quickly. Temptation and yearning are very different things. I think there's a little part of Xena that would have been quite happy living on that farm with mortal Ares (with or without Gab; insert off-colour ETTG jokes here ) and she is finally having to tell herself that it's never going to happen now. While Ares was mortal, there was always a chance that they could have been together, but once he gets his godhood back, it's a totally different situation in her mind. I think she's saying goodbye to that little chance

XenaAmber, "The return of love in YAT - was Xena tempted?"

I doubt Xena could not possibly be affected by the power that she was feeling at the time from Ares [in the apple scene in YAT]. If anyone could possibly understand the power rush Ares was having it was Xena. It's one of the things that connects them and gives them an understanding of each other that others don't have or share.

But I think what was tempting her the most was the thought of being with Ares. That's why she made such a personal statement of "Wouldn't want you to be alone". It could have been "we'd make an unstoppable team" or something else just as professional but it wasn't.

What I find interesting is just how close she came to taking the bite which shows just how much a part of her wants to be with him. Had it not been for Gabrielle saying her name I think she would have done it. Not sure that she would have been happy with that decision once it was made but I can she her making it nonetheless.

XenaandAres, "The return of love in YAT - was Xena tempted?"

I guess [he would be] any lover Xena would want him to be since he seems to take his cues from her.

Skye42, "What kind of lover is Ares?"

I guess I've always seen Xena and Ares as having a level of understanding that goes unappreciated by most others around them -- something on a different level to everyone else. So I never truly felt that there was anything that needed saying at any one point that wouldn't bring with it a big change in what was going on between the two characters.

Tango, "Things you wished Xena had told Ares and vice versa"

whenever ares appeared in season six, with the exception of the YAT and TUE, it seemed pretty obvious to me that the entire relationship between xena and ares had completely changed. xena stopped looking so suspicious and even seemed hurt when she thought ares was up to his old tricks in POV, like she expected more of him.

season 5 was all about ares and his feelings, but i felt like they were more reciprocated in season 6. in TGYK, for example, he fit right into xena's party, giving her information and interacting with eve and gabrielle. then there was the final exchange in POV. they acted so... close.

secular atrophy, "Was Season 6 a good season for shippers?"

Coming Home is a great shipper ep to me -- not only does it powerfully affirm Ares' feelings for Xena, but I think her feelings for him are fairly evident, in spite of the "one in a billion" thing. "You always got to me" is obviously as close as Xena is going to get, at this stage or maybe ever to admitting to Ares that she has feelings for him. And really, it's evident throughout the whole ep, particularly in the kiss (as one review somewhere said, "Xena tells Ares it ain't on and kisses him like it is" ). And it visibly takes an effort for her to walk away.

LadyKate63, "Was Season 6 a good season for shippers?"

I think that with the kisses in Livia and AUS Xena was certainly using them for her mission, but who's to say that she didn't start to lose herself a bit during the kisses - especially in AUS? It looked to me like she was getting pretty into it! That doesn't mean that she was totally unfocused, but that also doesn't mean she didn't like it.

Elfrieda, "Xena/Ares kisses: real/fake?"

I think Xena realized in Amphipolis Under Siege that Ares loved her. He did save Eve even though they didn't have a "deal" yet. And she heard him say to Athena, "They say blood is thicker than water, but blood runs hardest when love is involved." She tricked him at the end but I think she gave him an almost regretful look.

What she didn't realize until Motherhood was that he loved her to the point where he would sacrifice everything for her, without any "guarantee" or even promise of getting something in return. I think that really blew her away -- she looked amazed when she came up to him to thank him.

LadyKate63, "Motherhood-Ares saving Gabrielle..."

Ares was never 'good' for Xena - she's specifically said on a few occasions that he's bad for her. And I think she feels that way because he's War and she's afraid of the temptation he represents of giving in completely to her darkside. She loves him despite that, though. (yes, I know she never said she loved him, but for me, it's all about the actions, not the words).

And I don't think it's a question of why he's good for her, I think it's a question of why's she good for him. All those years she was afraid he was gonna turn her back into the evil warlord, she was pulling him along her road to redemption, making him a better man despite himself.

Aresbitch, "Why is he good for her?"

For me, it was never about being bad or good for her. I do not necessarly think that he was bad for her in season 5 and 6. I know she thought he was but I think that was mainly because she still did not trust herself, have enough faith in herself that she could continue to stay good while being around Ares.

But even if she didn't believe it in herself, I think that she had gotten past that point where he would have been able to have influence over her and I think that by season 5 he had no desire to have that kind of influence over her either (in the "I want to turn you over to the darkside again" way). Xena had grown enough as a person that I don't think the temptation was there anymore and so, in that way, I don't really believe he was still bad for her.

But that's not to say I necessarily think he was good for her, either. I mean, he would have his moments, true, and he was still the God of War and I realize that his love was never going to be a pure or ideal one. But I believe he loved her nonetheless and she realized that in season 6 after he'd become mortal for her.

Placing him in this good or bad category really simplifies the relationship--and Xena and Ares were anything but simple. Was he "good" for her? I don't necessarily think so, at least not all the time. Was he "bad" for her? Again, in a lot of ways, I don't think he was (not by the end of the series, anyway).

It's not that Ares was good for Xena but that Xena was good for Ares. Since I believe that he did change in a good way during the show because of Xena, this was probably the most fascinating part of the relationship. As Aresbitch said, he'd tried so hard to return her to "his side" and yet, in the end, she was the one that won out over him. That's a pretty powerful statement, War being conquered like that and the roles almost reversing as they did.

So, for them to be in a relationship, it would have been built on this concept. A relationship may not have been ideal between them, but I also don't think that means that Xena couldn't have loved him, either. As Aresbitch said, when coming from Xena to Ares, actions speak much louder than words and there were instances that she seemed to express a love toward him (like at the end of Coming Home). And she would have been able to love him because I believe she saw that she had changed him or brought out something in him that she could love and that probably touched her the most of all.

So, it wasn't necessarily about being good or bad for her. The love was there regardless of definition. It was a role reversal where she changed him which, in turn, allowed her to start to feel something more than just physical attraction to him. For the two of them, it was all about growth and change and pushing the defintions of love. It would never be the best forms of love, but that's what makes it interesting.

Aurora Goddess, "Why is he good for her?"

I do not see that kiss in CH as a pity/consolation pucker. She already thanked him, sincerely, from the bottom of her heart, right after Athena died. If she were going to thank him with a kiss, than the time for it would have been that night on Mt Olympus. Not weeks/months later.

I think the kiss, the smiles and the hand-holding was just Xena being unable, and unwilling, to resist Ares right then. He's being real, no god-posturing, no 'be my warrior queen' spiel - just them on a mountaintop, having a conversation like two regular people....who are madly attracted to each other. Her smile is genuine, as genuine as her kiss, and his answering "oww" is so cute and flirtatious, it - it- *sighs* gets me right here. *points to my heart*

Aresbitch, "Shippy ramblings"